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You can get full details on the track revitalization project happening between Rockridge, MacArthur, and 19th Street stations in Oakland here.

(Podcast transcript below)

FILIPPI: When it comes to rebuilding the backbone of BART, the upcoming track work in the heart of Oakland is the main event. Welcome to “Hidden Tracks: Stories from BART.”  

Years of planning have gone into the track replacement work that’s going to be happening on select weekends over the next three years in the core of the BART system. Organizers are calling this the most challenging and complex segment of BART’s revitalization plan that started in 2016, when District voters approved Measure RR. The measure provides $3.5 billion to replace aging track, traction power cables, and other vital equipment.

I’m your host Chris Filippi and this time on Hidden Tracks I’m joined by BART Project Manager Kevin Reeg who can talk about the challenges of this work and what will be accomplished, as well as BART Operations Planner Hayley Toy who will share more about how to navigate BART during all this work and the many efforts we’ve taken to reduce the impacts on riders from these shutdowns. Kevin and Hayley thank you both for being here.

Kevin and Haley, thank you so much for joining us. 

REEG and TOY: Thank you. Thanks for having us. 

FILIPPI: So, Kevin, let's start with you and give us the 30,000 feet view of this. This is a huge project that's coming up. It's in the heart of Oakland. Tell us what's going on. 

REEG: Yeah. So this, all the track work in this area was opened in 1972. So, it's seen 52 years of service. The section of track we’re planning to replace with this project is between 19th Street and MacArthur Station. It’s the most complicated section of track in the BART system.  There are actually four tracks wide there, anybody that’s ridden through that area knows the platform at MacArthur well.

FILIPP: I think it's really interesting that BART is more than 50 years old. We just celebrated our 50th anniversary last year. The equipment that's being replaced literally was there at the start of service back in 1972. It's amazing. It's lasted so long. 

REEG: Yeah, I mean, we're fortunate Oakland's got a Mediterranean environment, so it's a little easier on conditions. It's not in Chicago or somewhere else like New York City. So, 52 years it has made that benchmark. But, it's all on timber tires and they are degrading and then the track is also wearing out just due to significant wear at that location.

FILIPPIL: When you look at what's happening with this project, we're talking about equipment that's decades old. but on top of that, there are other challenges here, right? Like this is a difficult part of the system to get into when it comes to equipment, when it comes to access for the team. 

REEG: This site is particularly challenging because it's in the median of State Route 24. Back when this was built, there were 3 million less people in the Bay. State Route 24 was two lanes in each direction and, there was an area to work from to actually build this trackway. Now, of course, the freeway goes right up to the BART right-of-way, and the four sets of tracks go right up to the, Caltrans right-of-way.

So, all the work has to come in. either through the trackway or through a minor driveway that comes off of West MacArthur Boulevard. So, in other interlocking replacement projects, we've used large cranes and we've pre-assembled panels and lifted them into place. Here, just due to the density and the location of the freeway and the proximity to the other tracks, this is going to have to be built piece by piece and all those pieces will come in on the track away from a yard in Oakland. 

FILIPPI: And I would think that's got to be one of the reasons why this work is happening on select weekends over three years. This is going to take some time. 

REEG: Yeah. There’re 16 switches, just to give the kind of complexity between 19th Street and MacArthur, there's 16 switches between those two stations that need to be replaced. Switch is like an interchange where you can change tracks from one track to the next. There's 16 located in that spot so, it's very dense and then at each of these weekends, we'll replace one of those switches. Each of those will be loaded up on a train in Oakland, brought in and then assembled right on location. And while we do that, because of the proximity of the tracks to each other and the absence of room to work from, there can be no trains going by. First off, the section of track that we're facing will be completely removed. But secondly, will be too close to the tracks adjacent to have trains going by so this is what necessitates the bus bridge and why we do it on the weekends, just when we have less ridership. 

FILIPPI: This is such a complex dance, and it requires so much planning. And Haley, that's a great spot to bring you in because you deal with the operations planning aspects of this and specifically how riders are impacted and how they can get around the bus bridge. When you're presented with a major project like this, it's going to extend over three years, multiple weekends, 18 weekends, I believe. talk about the planning process and what happens on your end in terms of trying to limit the impact on our riders.

TOY: Yeah, absolutely. going off what Kevin said, we try to mitigate the delays as much as possible for our riders with these big track work projects. At the beginning, when we're in the beginning planning and initial planning phases, we review all the work and route prohibits that are suggested for the track work and then we work around that. So, we really analyze where the track work is taking place compared to where the trains are running. So, like in this case, at MacArthur, there really is only room for one track to be open and we actually fought for that track to be open for in Operations Planning. This will allow the Orange Line to come into MacArthur and is also one of the reasons why the Yellow Line is stopping at Rockridge. So, through this initial planning phase, we can create the best scenario for our customers that is the least impactful. 

FILIPPI: And it must be really hard to do that given the location of where this work is happening. I mean, Oakland's right in the core of everything. 

TOY: Yeah. Urban stations add another level of complexity to bus bridge coordination, not only for the customers, but also for our bus operators, the bus agencies that we work with. It makes it much more complex for bus routing. And street availability for drop offs and pickups. Also, for passengers who may need, the elevator like ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) passengers or people with baggage. 

So, the next piece of the puzzle for our initial planning is the train schedule development. For this bus bridge because it's so complex, we've actually, tested multiple scheduling scenarios through modeling software that we have. We’ve basically found the most resilient and efficient option for our customers. This involves balancing the need for efficiency, as frequent service as possible, while also the goal of minimizing disruption. Through this modeling, we actually tested multiple service scenarios with tribulations. So, building in delays and testing for delays. Then we decided on the best service to run. For example the Orange Line, Green, Blue and yeah those three lines have 30 minute service while the Yellow Line has 20 minutes service. We tested all four lines of 20 minute service, and because of the way our track is structured and the need for single tracking in and out of 19th and 12th Street, and as well as, MacArthur Station for the Orange Line, those service scenarios would not work if there were delays. It would cause compounding delays and like hours of delays for our customers.

So, we have a resilient plan, a little bit of a longer headway for 30 minutes for a lot of the lines while also servicing the airport every 20 minutes in downtown San Francisco through the Yellow Line. 

FILIPPI: It's really interesting, the software modeling aspect of this. Is that something that's new or has that been used on past track shutdowns?

TOY: We usually use it for the really complex shutdowns and we actually go through a third-party vendor and they develop the testing for us and then we analyze, basically go through analysis of it. We don't usually use it for other shutdowns, especially the ones at the end of the lines because they're more simple, we can do our own analysis and testing through our software system there, like building the schedules and doing our own testing. Whereas the more complex ones we have a train modeling third party come through.

FILIPPI: It’s not just about headways, right? It's not just about the time between trains, but it's having resiliency and having confidence in the schedule you come up with that it can actually stand up through whatever may happen on a given weekend.

TOY: Yeah, absolutely. 

REEG: Well, and the Orange Line has special challenges just because, the Orange Line, we're bringing single track into MacArthur Station, there's no switches between MacArthur Station and the Berkeley Station. So, the trains have to be single tracked, from MacArthur to Ashby to Berkeley and it's not until past then that they can switch tracks and go onto both platforms at North Berkeley. The net effect is, is you have one way traffic into MacArthur Station and one way traffic back out, which leads to the longer, headways on the Orange Line. 

FILIPPI: It speaks to just the realities of the BART system and the fact is, we do not have redundant tracks. So, we really do rely on these interlocking, these components of the trackway that allow trains to go from track to track. It's a really important thing that I think a lot of our riders maybe aren't even aware of. 

TOY: Yeah, it's a very complex system, and there are a lot of different constraints that can cause extra delays for passengers based on where the work location is happening. 

FILIPPI: And then, Kevin, planning on your end of things. I know the talks about this project have been going on for years, right?

REEG: Yeah, I've only taken the project over the last year. But as you mentioned, Measure RR was approved in 2016 and, the planning for this project started in the spring of 2017. So, it was a massive design effort, that ended a few years ago and then we've gone into major procurements for traction power materials, train control materials, and the biggest packages of all were the special track work, for all the 16 switches. Those have gone to the (BART) Board and over the last couple of years and now we're receiving materials and getting ready to go out there and actually build the work. 

FILIPPI: We've successfully completed more than 50 tracks shutdowns since RR was approved. What lessons have been learned from those past track shutdowns? 

REEG: Those weekend shutdowns were comprised both of by contractors replacing switches and interlocking and also BART forces and of those, BART forces have replaced 34 switches. Most of those were panelized construction but, recently we've done more what I call stick build where they're built piece by piece on location where there's not access for a crane. In fact, the, the shutdowns in spring of 2023 were built in the same way between Rockridge and MacArthur Station. So, the BART crews have gotten, significant experience doing this work and they've developed quite the skill set for that. 

FILIPPI: Shutdowns are kind of a new thing for BART. We really didn't do them before measure RR, but we do them now with some frequency. Why shut down the trackway? Why is that necessary? 

REEG: The biggest thing is the proximity of the two tracks to each other. Most locations are only two tracks wide. At this location were four tracks wide. But we're pulling one track completely out of service, so obviously you wouldn't be able to run trains there. But, with our workers, we can't have the trains running past them. We need the adjacent area to bring in equipment and materials. And so just from a safety aspect and operationally with the construction itself, it's just impossible.

FILIPPI: We have what we call the blanket, which is when revenue service ends in that period until it resumes early in the morning and that's only a few hours. You really do need more than that for a project like this, I would think?

REEG: Yeah, just the process of taking the trackwork out will take a few hours, but then now you have to go back in and do regrading, new ballast, bring in all the materials. It's actually a challenge to bank it in that weekend shutdown. We have an hour-by-hour schedule that we go through starting Friday at midnight all the way until Monday morning at 4 a.m. when we can bring the track service back into service. It's around the clock, there's multiple crews that take over, after the one crews time out, but it's a 24-hour operation from Friday night to Monday morning. Then there's multiple safety checks done Monday morning and a test train that's run to make sure that the new trackway is operational and safe before revenue service starts on Monday morning.

FILIPPI: How much pressure are you feeling when it gets to like 1 a.m. on Monday? 

REEG: Well, it goes back to the hour-by-hour schedule. That’s the whole point of that is to find out if you're falling behind and fortunately, over the last couple of years, we've been able to maintain and be right on top of that schedule, so the stress levels have gone down. Early on, I think there was a little bit more stress with that when we were first getting into this Measure RR program. But knock on wood and timber ties, we've been fortunate recently. 

FILIPPI: Yeah, 24/7 work. So, how many people are involved in a project like this?

REEG: At a typical, section of the day, there would be 30 to 40 workers on site. Over the weekend, with all the different locations where work is taking place, there'll be a couple hundred workers that they'll be out every weekend. 

FILIPPI: And then Haley, they're going to be extra people at all of the impacted stations, too. There are other layers of this. We do so much public outreach for a big project like this, talking to reporters, the public, elected officials, doing all that outreach. But a key part of that really is the additional people that will be at these stations helping riders to find their way. 

TOY: Yeah, exactly. We have at least 15 people at 19th Street Station, and this is mainly for outside the paid area. There's also additional transportation staff inside the paid area on the platform and in the concourse and then we have wayfinding guides. outside of the paid area on the concourse and the street level to help people, to help guide people to the correct bus, depending on their final destination. 

We also have a very intense signage plan. We have a total of 149 signs for all three of the stations, which is our biggest and most complex signage plan to date. So, we supplement the signs obviously with personnel and we also have interpreters. we have Mandarin, Cantonese interpreters as well as Spanish interpreters on the platform, concourse, and street level at 19th Street Station and then, the street level at MacArthur and at Rockridge stations. 

FILIPPI: And also, coordination with other agencies is a big factor too and building relationships with your transit partners with, AC transit, with County Connection, those sorts of folks. That must be a big part of this as well. 

TOY: BART is super fortunate to have strong relationships with the bus agencies in the Bay Area, which is really crucial for the successful coordination of a bus bridge.

FILIPPI: And I assume more lessons learned there, too, not just for the track folks that are actually doing the work, but for, again, providing a bus bridge that's resilient and helping riders find their way. What kind of lessons have been learned over all these different shutdowns?

TOY: Each shutdown lends lesson learned opportunities and we examine what worked well and what didn't. Over the past year, we've had a lot of one-off bus bridges. This is like a bus bridge for only one weekend at different locations throughout the Bay Area. This has really given us an opportunity to have new bus bridge experiences and focus on lessons learned for those. So, I think the biggest one is improved communication. On previous shutdowns, it's been highlighted that the need for better there is a need for better communication with passengers and this is not only for BART passengers, but also passengers that may be affected by bus station stops being relocated. In response, we've significantly increased staffing and implemented an extensive signage campaign for this bus bridge, like I mentioned. This will ensure that passengers receive clear, timely information and assistance throughout their journey, which is really important. And making sure that there's adequate signage for the temporary bus stops, which will happen at 19th Street and at Rockridge Station. 

Another thing is really optimizing our transfers. So, we've learned the importance of ensuring timely transfers, especially when we're canceling the supplemental lines of service, like maybe the Red Line or the Green Line, depending on where we are in the system. That mitigates delays for passengers needing to transfer lines to get to their final destination. 

FILIPPI: So, let's just say for the sake of example, we have a rider who uses BART on the weekends. Listening to this podcast is the first time they've heard of this shutdown. What's your advice for them? 

TOY: Plan in advance and make sure that you check the BART Trip Planner to plan your trip and you can also go on the BART App to have to look at the real time departures. So, this bus bridge is actually specific in that all lines of service are going to be affected. So, don't rely on your normal weekend departure times because they will be different. 

So, while you're planning your trip, also make sure that you incorporate delays. So, if you need to get somewhere at a certain time, incorporate up to 40-minute delays and plan for that.

While you're traveling on the bus bridge, make sure you're paying attention to station announcements as well as train operating announcements while you're on the train. This will help you know when to disembark the train to go onto the bus bridge. Then once you're off the train, follow the wayfinding signs. If you need help or if you need assistance, don't be afraid to ask someone in the yellow vest for help and make sure you're also kind of paying attention to where your final destination is so that you can make sure you get on the right bus especially if you're someone who transfers regularly at MacArthur or 19th Street. 

FILIPPI: And Kevin, sticking with that bottom line for riders, the whole reason we're doing this is to increase the resilience of the system, to make it more reliable, so there's a payoff for them. I was impressed. I saw in the last year the number of trains that were delayed due to rail issues dropped by 400 from the previous year, and that has to do with the work that's going on that these shutdowns, they're a temporary inconvenience, but they're paying off for the rider.

REEG: Yes. even just around this location, we've replaced the interlocking work in into this location. So, between Rockridge and MacArthur, we've replaced those interlocking, between West Oakland and 19th, we've replaced interlocking. We've been replacing infrastructure throughout the system, and we've had measurable results on that. 

FILIPPI: Does the past experience with the other shutdowns give you confidence going into what really, it seems to me to be the most complex of the projects that we have going with this? 

REEG: It has. BART forces have replaced 34 switches at various interlockings and recently we've done more of the stick build variety, and we've matched up and developed hour-by-hour schedules that we've been able to, hit successfully and repeatedly and that's it has given us a lot of confidence here. 

FILIPPI That was an interesting transition going from contractors early on to now it's primarily BART crews that are doing the work. What was that and why did that happen, that transition?

REEG: there's a natural efficiency for utilizing the BART forces that are already out there. They're trained and even when there's a contractor out there, we need to supplement with BART forces. So, there's an efficiency there by doing the work ourselves.

We've now established a very, well-trained crew and very skilled, crews to do this work efficiently. 

FILIPPI: Kevin, how long have you been with BART? 

REEG: I've been with BART for six years. 

FILIPPI: Six years, you've had a chance to be involved in similar projects. Maybe not on this scale, but certainly nonetheless important projects. What do you enjoy about getting ready and organizing a huge thing like this?

REEG: Yeah, my background is in construction. So, when I came to BART, it was part of the Measure RR to do the track interlocking replacements and so that's been my primary, focus I've worked on interlockings throughout the system and so that's kind of my forte. My biggest reward is, I'm a construction person, so I always enjoy seeing, brand new, concrete ties and brand new track work and walking away from something and looking at it, and it's in perfect condition and everything has been renewed. There's a satisfaction with that for sure.

FILIPPI: And Haley, same question for you. How long have you been at BART? 

TOY: I've been at BART, it'll be eight years in October. 

FILIPPI: And so, what do you enjoy about being involved in a major project like this? 

TOY: I actually really love being in the field. I am kind of the bus bridge coordinator, so I'm out there all day, both days, making sure the busses run smoothly, making sure our wayfinding guides are actively helping passengers and making sure they're positioned in the right places. But I really enjoy seeing the riders, and working in the stations, helping people find the right bus to get on, and just engaging with the customers in a level that I did not get to before I worked as an operations planner.

FILIPPI: What are you hearing from our riders? 

TOY: We get a lot of positive and sometimes negative feedback too, and that that's helped us really improve the customer experience for these bus bridges. We have a lot of specific challenges that we always think about in the planning process, and this is often with passenger flow, just the way the stations are built. It's not always ideal to have a group of people exiting and entering from like one station exit, for example. Trying to really mitigate the issues that we've seen before. For example, when an escalator exits, you just only have one escalator instead of two, one going up and the stairs next to it. And the you can switch the direction of the escalator.

We basically get a lot of feedback about how easy is it for a person to get off the train, find the bus that they need to go on, get on the bus, and then get back on the train at the next station. So usually, we really try and make sure that we've developed a bus schedule and provided enough busses so that no one's waiting, that they can just get on the next bus to get on the train and also developing a train schedule that really centers around the bus bridge riders. 

FILIPPI: When you talk about organizing the bus rides, a key factor is having enough buses. How many do you need to handle all the riders on an eight-car train? 

TOY: That really depends on where the bus bridge is happening in the system. So, the end of the lines usually see less passengers because it's not a core corridor of BART.

So previously for bus bridges like from Richmond to all El Cerrito del Norte Station or from Concord to Pleasant Hill, we usually use one 60-foot articulated bus per eight car train or six car train, depending on where it is in the system and that is completely out the window for this bus bridge. So, we're going to have, like between Rockridge and 19th Street, we're going to have eight articulated buses in rotation. Additionally for MacArthur and 19th Street we're having an additional eight articulated buses in rotation. So, that's 16 buses just for those two direct routes. And then we also have a smaller route going from MacArthur to Rockridge station and those are going to have 40-foot buses and that'll be like likely two 40 foot buses per train load coming into MacArthur.

FILIPPI: And then another part of that is also accommodating bicyclists that are on BART. That has to be factored in too, I would think, to the buses. 

TOY: Yeah, absolutely. and especially now, because we're seeing a lot more bicyclists on BART. A lot of the times we incorporate that just by having buses take off every ten minutes. So, even though the trains are coming in, every 20 minutes or even every 30 minutes, we have buses taking off every ten minutes so that the passengers who have bicycles can wait for the next bus to come and get on the bus and then still meet the train waiting for them at the next station.

FILIPPI:  I'm sure one question some passengers are going to have is, why are we canceling the Red Line? How does that help things? 

TOY: It is mainly due to the single tracking between Berkeley and MacArthur stations, because it takes 25 minutes for one train to get from Berkeley to MacArthur, unload passengers, reload passengers, and then go back to the switch just north of Berkeley. That's 25 minutes so we really don't have any leeway, any additional time to slot the Red Line trains in there and because we have 20-minute service on the Yellow Line south of 19th Street that's going to bring people into the city on a 20-minute headway and that'll also be servicing San Francisco Airport all day instead of just after 9 p.m.. So, we're supplementing some additional service on the Yellow Line to make up for the Red Line being canceled. 

I will add that the success of a bus bridge, not only from the track work and maintenance side, but also from the bus operations and train operation side, really depends on the coordination of so many departments all working together towards one common goal. It's really impressive to see that happening in real time during the bus bridge During the bus bridge, I get updates from the project managers and can see in real time the work happening and there's always one thing I pay attention to, which is, is there a threat to revenue service on Monday? And the answer is always no because they're that efficient.

FILIPPI: BART Project Manager Kevin Reeg and BART Operations Planner Haley Toy, thank you both for joining us. 

REEG AND TOY: Thank you. 

FILIPPI: Thanks for listening to “Hidden Tracks: Stories from BART.” You can listen to our podcast on SoundCloud, iTunes, Google Play, and of course at our website BART.gov/podcasts.

BART engineer Joshua Muñoz pictured in front of 19th Street/Oakland Station in the 2024 BART Pride t-shirt.  

Mechanical Engineer Joshua Muñoz was always a strong student. But in third grade, he got in trouble with his teacher. After finishing an English quiz, young Joshua flipped the paper over and began doodling. When his teacher came over to tell him to focus, she glanced at the back of the quiz and found it covered with an intricate design for a rollercoaster.  

From a very young age, Joshua has been fascinated by wheel and rail systems. The “weird obsession,” as he describes it, began one day at Knott’s Berry Farm as he stared up at rollercoasters so massive, they seemed to poke the sky. He loved the way the trains articulated and twisted, and how they moved loudly yet gracefully around the track.  

When he was seven, Joshua finally rode his first rollercoaster, Knott's Berry Farm’s iconic Montezooma’s Revenge, a flywheel-launched shuttle coaster. 

“I was too afraid at first to ride it. I actually got on then got off,” Joshua said. Eventually he conquered his fear and experienced the exhilaration of being launched at 55mph into a vertical loop, ascending a spike, then reversing direction. 

A photo Joshua took on Montezooma’s Revenge on his last visit to Knott’s Berry Farm in February 2022. He said,” This is the view I will never forget from my childhood.”  

Joshua’s coaster obsession kept growing. During his childhood, Joshua estimates he drew hundreds of rollercoaster designs, including a “gentle rollercoaster for old folks” and one called “Triple Knot,” which had a knot configuration that looped on itself three times.  

In time, Joshua’s interests expanded to include another class of wheel and rail systems (one without the loop-de-loops). That would be railroads, of course. Joshua said being able to combine this passion with BART's mission of safely carrying people around the region makes his work feel important and meaningful. 

Plus, he still gets to enjoy his rollercoasters. In August, he’s taking himself on a vacation to the amusement park Cedar Point in Ohio. “I’ve been ogling it since I was a kid, and I finally am in a place to treat myself,” he said.  

A photo of Montezooma’s Revenge Joshua took on his last visit to Knott’s Berry Farm in February 2022.  

Joshua’s dad was a Marine, and he grew up on Camp Pendleton, an military base in Oceanside, Calif. 

“I’m lucky it was a military base in a progressive area,” Joshua said, adding that his parents were “ultimately progressive.” 

But if there was one place on the base Joshua felt most comfortable, it was the pet supply store he worked at in high school. The manager was outgoing and accepting, the type of supervisor who didn’t take the work too seriously.  

“That environment allowed me to be 16 and gay. It was a nice escape after a school day to go work at the store. It gave me a lot of room to be outgoing and comfortable,” Joshua said.  

Joshua’s dog, Chip, (not adopted from the Camp Pendleton pet store) smiling on a sunny weekend day at Dolores Park in the Mission District of San Francisco.  

Joshua never had a formal coming out. “Judging by the pink shirts I bought at Hollister, I wasn’t hiding the fact that I was gay,” he said. “I was able to present as gay and didn’t have to come out. I do remember hearing remarks out loud here and there, but I am grateful that the harassment never reached harmful levels.” 

“You know, I still look good in pink,” he added.  

Given his love for rollercoasters, Joshua decided at a young age that he’d be a mechanical engineer. At Oceanside High School, he excelled in math and physics and knew he was on the fast track to a university engineering program.  

Then, his family moved inland. It was his senior year, and Joshua was faced with starting all over in an area that was wealthier, more conservative, and less diverse.  

“When we moved, I lost that open world I had back at Oceanside High," he said.  

At his new school, an English teacher pulled him aside after class to tell him to act less gay.  

“I know you’re out,” she told him. “You just have to be a little more cautious.”  

Joshua started to “check out” at his new school. Then he got a C in calculus. 

“I completely lost my confidence,” he said.  

After graduating, Joshua went to a community college to “recover” and get his bearings. He did exceptionally well, and after finishing his coursework, he applied and was accepted to the engineering program at University of California, San Diego. Finally, he was in the big city he dreamed about living in when he was a gay kid on the military base.  

“I couldn’t get down there fast enough,” he said.  

Joshua supported himself in college by working at Seaworld. He had a coveted job as a Dolphin Interaction Photographer (DIP) taking photos of people petting the park’s dolphins.  

“It was primarily a group of young women, and my manager was gay. I was lucky to be welcomed in that space. It was an extremely supportive environment,” Joshua said of his former coworkers.  

Joshua and friends celebrating Pride weekend in 2023. 

Joshua’s railroad career officially began when he became a PhD student, studying at Virginia Tech’s Railway Technologies program.  

Getting accepted into the program was a watershed moment for him. Finally, that C in calculus stopped haunting him.  

“My advice to students is don’t peak early,” he said. “I did the slow climb, the glow up. Know who you are and what your true passion is, not what others insist on you pursuing.” 

At Virginia Tech, Joshua wrote his dissertation on Doppler LIDAR as a multifunctional railroad surveying tool. Doppler LIDAR measures the velocity of a moving object based on the frequency differentials of emitted near-infrared light versus the scattered light that is captured by sensors.  

His graduate research is highly relevant to BART, which uses Doppler LIDAR for a variety of purposes. For example: BART’s new Rail Inspection Vehicle. As the vehicle moves along track, it measures a series or “railroad geometries,” such as superelevation, tilt, and the geometric curvature of the rail.  

After obtaining his PhD, Joshua worked at a series of railroad and consulting companies. He moved to the Bay Area in 2018 to work as a consultant on the Caltrain Electrification Project. Three years later, he found himself at BART.  

“I just love the BART system,” he said. “I used it all the time to visit my long-distance partner over a decade ago, who lived in San Francisco before I moved to the Bay.”  

Years before Joshua worked for the agency, BART was an integral part of his life that connected him to friends and experiences, including the Castro District in San Francisco, where he had many “meaningful queer experiences.”  

“I have all these memories now because BART carried me to these places and memories,” he said. “BART has connected me to the gay community and my favorite experiences for years now."  

Joshua is currently focusing on BART’s Berkeley Hill Tunnel’s emergency ventilation system (EVS) renewal project to replace the system’s old equipment and further bolster its safety and reliability. The work is fulfilling because Joshua knows he is part of a team that’s “holding passenger safety in their hands.”  

Joshua regularly mentors new engineers, including BART’s engineering interns, and contributes to youth outreach efforts. In five years, he said he sees himself in a leadership role where he can inspire young engineers and keep learning.  

BART has been welcoming and highly supportive of him and other LGBT employees, Joshua said. LGBT people bring a unique point of view and skillset to the workplace that benefits the entire organization. Diversity in perspective, experience, and thinking enhances and strengthens every project and situation you face at work, he said. 

"As a gay person, you come into the workplace with empathy because we have all experienced some form of discrimination in our lives,” he said.  

“We also practice resiliency because we have to. We’ve had to put in extra work to prove to others and ourselves our capabilities,” he continued. “And we have a drive to succeed, to prove our worth and demonstrate that we, too, are critical to our communities.” 
 

Joshua pictured with his abuelito, Luis Juarez, in matching train conductor hats. Luis was a railroad worker in his younger years. 

In 2019, Joshua’s family experienced the horrific impacts of hatred firsthand. Joshua's abuelito, Luis Juarez, was killed in a mass shooting in an El Paso Walmart that has been classified as a hate crime. The shooter was specifically targeting Latino people. At 90, Luis was the oldest victim. His wife, Martha Juarez, was injured in the shooting but survived. 

"The experience demonstrated that there is extreme hatred in our country,” Joshua said. “It showed me that all underrepresented, underprivileged communities in this country are living under the constant threat of physical violence, including the LGBT community.” Out in the Castro with friends, Joshua said he always pays attention to his surroundings and makes sure he knows where the exits are.  

The tragedy, he said, also made him stronger. It taught him the importance of resilience and leaning on others for support.  

“You don’t have to be alone in being resilient. The fight for resilience teaches you that you need your community to help with your recovery, to help you find your strength and move forward,” he said. “Find the people and resources you need to recover from a hardship, to understand your trauma, and to return to your life stronger." 

Joshua models the new BART Pride merchandise at Lake Merritt. 

This year, Joshua is looking forward to another jubilant Pride weekend. He’ll be celebrating with BART by walking with agency’s contingent, including the BARTmobile and a cool scissor truck, in the San Francisco Pride Parade.  

“Pride is a time for friends to get together and be ebullient in our celebration and spend the day happy. It is a day to have more pride in ourselves than the hate we receive. It is a day to be more stentorian than the raucous contempt in the world toward the LGBTQ community,” he said. “Pride reminds you that you are loved by your city, your friends, our family. And it reminds you to love and celebrate yourself.”  

BART is seeking feedback on two new fare programs under consideration to increase transit ridership. Take the survey at bart.gov/BayPassSurvey.

The first is Clipper BayPass, a regional, prepaid, unlimited -ride transit pass available to institutions including employers, universities, affordable housing sites, and other participating organizations. Organizations purchase and provide a prepaid Clipper BayPass to 100% of their eligible members who can enjoy unlimited access to all bus, rail, and ferry services in the nine-county Bay Area. This program is currently in its pilot phase. 

The second program is the No Cost & Reduced Cost Transfers Pilot Program scheduled to launch along with the Next Generation Clipper system in the future. This will provide transit riders with free or discounted transfers between various transit agencies when using Clipper. Customers will pay the full fare for the first leg of their trip and transfer trips made between agencies in the two hours following their first Clipper card tag will be free or discounted up to the maximum local fare, currently $2.50. 

Please share your opinions about these programs by taking the survey online June 7 – June 24 at bart.gov/BayPassSurvey or at in-station outreach events at the BART stations listed below.

• Montgomery Street Station on Tuesday, June 11| 7:00am – 9:30am
• Richmond Station on Wednesday, June 12| 3:00pm – 6:00pm
• Downtown Berkeley Station on Thursday, June 13| 7:00am – 9:30am
• 12th St./Oakland City Center on Tuesday, June 18 | 7:00am – 9:30am
• Berryessa/North San Jose on Thursday, June 20 | 3:00pm – 6:00pm

On September 11, BART will roll out a reimagined service plan that will eliminate 30-minute wait times on nights and weekends. That means no BART rider will have to wait more than 20 minutes for a scheduled train no matter the hour or day of the week. This new schedule is responsive to post-pandemic commute patterns and opens new opportunities for BART to expand its ridership. To do a deep dive into the new schedule Jay Sathe sat down with BART’s Manager of Scheduling and Planning John FitzGibbon (below) on the latest edition of our podcast series, "Hidden Tracks: Stories from BART".

(Transcript below)

SATHE: Welcome back to “Hidden Track Stories from BART.” I'm Jay Sathe and with me again because we're talking schedule again is John FitzGibbon, Manager of Scheduling and Planning. Did I get that right this time?

FITZGIBBON: Yes, you did. 

SATHE: Excellent. All right. It's been a year. I've had time to practice, and you've been pretty busy, haven't you?

FITZGIBBON: Yeah, it's been a busy, busy, busy year. 

SATHE: We are doing a whole new schedule again. I think last time we came out and said, “oh, it’s ground up, it’s complete redone,” but now it’s completely redone more.”

FITZGIBBON: Right. Looking at the data, we were under the impression that we needed to do things much different. And so, looking at how we schedule the trains in our historical context of every 15 minutes, roughly, that wasn't going to work in order to add additional service to the places that needed it and then takeaway service where places didn't need it as much.

Much of the decision making was based on ridership and where we had a need for additional ridership and service and where we could maybe take away a little bit of service. The Board over the years has asked for more service in the evenings, more service on the weekends and by taking a balance of some service during the weekdays and applying that to nights and weekends, we were able to create a more balanced solution that is roughly neutral in cost. So, that's kind of where we started.

SATHE: Just for everybody who might not be familiar, it's the same now. Daytime to nights and weekends on almost every line, right?

FITZGIBBON: Correct. Yep. So, in addition to that, we have the same schedule seven days a week, roughly. One of the techniques I used to build this new schedule was a component in the scheduling software that I have never used because it's generally not used. But in this case, it seemed to make sense and it gave me the ability to create a seven-day timetable, meaning every single trip across all seven days is exactly the same every seven days.

So, if you have an 8 am trip on a Green Line at Bay Fair It's going to be 8 am every single day of the week. So that was a way to kind of lock in and make sure that every dimension of all the trips were clean across the week and it simplifies the schedule.

SATHE: So, if you could talk to just the average rider who maybe doesn’t have the technical knowledge of all this, how would you talk to them and help show that this is a good change in all these different ways? You have the 90 seconds elevator pitch. What do you have for this schedule?

FITZGIBBON: Basically, the pitch would be we have a simpler schedule that’s the same seven days a week so no matter what day of the week it is or time of day you’re going to be able to get your train. That in and of itself I think is going to simplify a lot of people’s lives. They don’t have to go look at a schedule and figure out when is the Yellow Line coming today versus Saturday or Sunday. So that’s a huge thing. And then building the schedule so we have nice even headways across the network to get into the City, which is the number one destination for most people on BART is getting into the City. No matter where you are in the network you have 10-minute service there seven days a week.

SATHE: Yeah, absolutely. I know that last time we were talking about that I think we started that process, and this is kind of a culmination of that where last time I think Red and Green lines were like close weekdays to weekends and the three-line service was correct, but this was close. How did it all click together, this time how how come it worked?

FITZGIBBON: Well, by building it kind of as a wholesome one unit and whatever I built on any given day was going to apply to every single day. So, it took out that dimension of having a little bit different on the weekends and just applying what we did in the one single timetable basically got rid of that imbalance that we had a little bit on the weekends with the Red and the Green lines.

SATHE: Yeah, It's going to be huge I think just having weekend service be as important essentially as  weekday service is a real kind of new way that BART is changing our service in the wake of the pandemic and with commute service perhaps not being quite as high priority at the expense of other things.

What's the philosophy right now around expanding and balancing out service for different times of the day?

FITZGIBBON: The post-pandemic ridership reality is that there just isn't the level of peak that there has been over the course of most of BART's life. So, the schedule is much flatter and less reliant because of all the things that are happening socially. Building a schedule that is looking at the places where there's room for growth in the evenings and on the weekends was a way forward.

SATHE: The improvements late night and weekends are going to be tremendous. I think hopefully that’ll spur a lot of growth in ridership on all those times as well. That was one goal. What are the other goals of this new change?

FITZGIBBON: So, the other goal was to really synchronize those lines that have shared trains. So, for the Berryessa to Fremont section, we had a fairly bad imbalance between the Orange and the Green since its inception. When we moved down to Berryessa in 2020, that schedule's always been really awful. So, this time I was able to really coordinate the two lines so that if you're at Berryessa or anywhere in between, Bay Fair and Berryessa you can get on a Green or an Orange line and transfer to the Blue Line when you're on the Orange Line to get to the City in 10 minutes. So, that entire length of our network has a 10-minute schedule to the City, and that's something we've never had before. 

SATHE: That's huge. So, all over the system, transfers are going to be better, right?

FITZGIBBON: Yes. So that was one of the major focus was to ensure that no matter which line you're on the line to Berryessa, the line to Antioch, or the line to Richmond, that all those lines would be a 10 minute service into the City and we pretty much achieved that.

SATHE: Yeah, that's great. I know at least I can imagine everybody who's been on the Richmond to MacArthur even knows that how much more crowded the Red Line trains are usually than the Orange in the morning. 

FITZGIBBON: Yes, so it'll be really important to get that message out. Jump on an Orange Line transfer to a Yellow at MacArthur. There's twice as much service on the Yellow Line so those trains won't be as crowded as they may have been otherwise with the 15-minute headways. So, I think it's going to turn out pretty well and nobody will have to wait more than 10 minutes really to get into the City.

SATHE: Yeah, that's great. I mean, it's a real it's sort of a shortcut, right? As an Orange Line rider, frequently I'm like, on the one hand, I'm glad everybody else is getting where they’re going. On the other hand, I'm like, damn, this is kind of my little secret, this little secret BART train that got me.

You know, I can always sit down. But I think largely with better headways, especially on the weekends, it's hopefully we'll have plenty of seats for everybody and plenty of space.

FITZGIBBON: The weekend service, we're adding 50% more service, more seats. So, I don't expect there to be too much trouble.

SATHE: So, is so much of this kind of unlocking these 10-minute headways being reliant on transfers, we've definitely had the problem with some canceled trips in the past and I know that's gone away substantially. This schedule helps that even more. Is that right?

FITZGIBBON: Yes, it does. We are currently running 59 trains at any given time and the new schedule only requires 55. So, it's a few less trains that we have to kind of keep on top of which the control center is appreciative of. It is also because of the 20-minute headways on the individual lines, so Orange Line or Green Line or Blue Line are 20 minutes. When they get to their terminal, the operator then has the opportunity to take a break. In our old schedule when it was a 15-minute turnaround there just wasn't quite enough time to get a proper break, according to the contract with the union, and that would result in compound issues. By extending that five more minutes, we're much more likely to give the operators a proper break that they deserve after being on the train for an hour and a half sometimes and get to what they need to do and then back for the next trip around. So, this will vastly improve our breaks for our employees, and it was designed to be, or one of the outcomes of the project was to make the quality-of-life improvements around that area.

SATHE: That's great. You’re basically saying if a train comes in late, the operator and the equipment and everything has more time to still be able to get breaks and be turned around and ready to go to depart on time. Because I know that I've definitely seen it where the train pulls in a few minutes late, then immediately has to pull back out and it's already leaving late and it's going to have issues. So that’s tremendous just to be able to have that sort of extra cushion on the turnaround. And of course, just a better quality of life for operators, too. I I think we're still hiring some new ones as well. I’m sure every existing one is going to be thanking you for that.

FITZGIBBON: And yeah, I mean, we can measure that. I just got a file recently on and how many of those breaks that we missed. And I'm looking forward to running that report in December to see how much improvement we've made.

SATHE: When you were trying to reschedule everything and moving from 30 and 15s to doing this 20s and 10s. When did it all click that this will work and when routings all had to work?

FITZGIBBON: Well the concept itself because headways need to be a multiple of each other so doing a 10:20 mathematically is always going to work but given all the constraints that BART has getting everything to really line up becomes the hard part. Making the little tweaks that are possible I did to the point where we got the cleanest schedule we could get at this point.

SATHE: What does clean meat exactly?

FITZGIBBON: Clean means the trips across the day, they start at the same time. So, there is always a multiple of either ten or 20 across the day. So, you get three trains per hour on the twenties and six trains for hours on the tens. So, when you look at the timetable, you see all these very similar numbers as a rider so you know that your train is always going to be there on the ones or the fives or whatever it is. That’s kind of a clean schedule to me.

SATHE: Excellent. Nice. Is that your personal like, was it your favorite part about this schedule personally? Like what's just very satisfying?

FITZGIBBON: Getting the Orange and the Green line finally to be 10 minutes apart for anybody going into the City. I mean, that was something that I've been trying to get done for a long time. It just never quite worked with the 15-minute headways. But with the tens, it just worked. There are some constraints on the A Line, which is the section of track between Lake Merritt and Bay Fair or Fremont that really preclude moving things around too much because we have a very important constraint. So, getting the service aligned up so that the Green and the Blue at that point in the network are always 10 minutes apart and then pushing that down the line to the Orange and the Green, it all came together this time.

SATHE: Nice. So that's just, it came together in a way better than it could have at 15 minutes, between these trains?

FITZGIBBON: For some reason it fit mathematically this time.

SATHE: Do you think that was ever planned for in sort of the construction and engineering?

FITZGIBBON: Absolutely not. When these networks are engineered, there's no thought about how they would impact a schedule. It's something that I'm very mindful of now in the rollout of the extension to Santa Clara. We need it to be a certain speed and distance in order to make schedules easier for our customers and more reliable.

SATHE: Once the schedule was built, you then took it and presented it to Transportation and to Rolling Stock and everybody. How did that go this time?

FITZGIBBON: I basically created the plan in concept mostly. I hadn't completely built the schedule, but I wanted to get it out to a couple of folks, a very small audience. And so, I sent it to Shane Edwards, who is the Assistant GM for Transportation Operations, and I sent it to Alicia Trost, who is the Director of Comms and initially got some feedback that was pretty positive. Alicia sent back a note saying this is a reimagined service.

SATHE: And that's where the name came from.

FITZGIBBON: That stuck for sure. The rest of the review by Shane Edwards staff was mostly positive and so from there I got kind of the go ahead to push further and actually build a real schedule that we could then look at and evaluate.

SATHE: I'm sure that was just the very beginning of the whole process.

FITZGIBBON: That was February. Yes.

SATHE: It'll be a whole other podcast episode to actually go through every single step of the way until we got all the way here. When we first started posting this and showing the new map and talking about this new schedule, a lot of people were interested, that's maybe perhaps a generous word, but we're interested in the fact that we were changing the service amount over again. What are the advantages this time and do you think you've finally gotten it nailed?

FITZGIBBON: Well, the advantages are when you look at our ridership statistics. The airport is one of the highest ridership places in BART's inventory. And so, getting more service out there, it's just kind of a naturally good thing because we want to have really good robust service at the airport. It's kind of a thing for me personally that origin destination is one of the most important origin destinations of any major city in the world. If you can get really good service from your airport that kind of speaks volumes. We started out just two years ago with only four trains per hour going to the airport, which is not that great. And it's actually been discussed in other social media, is that's really not very good at all. I kind of took that and worked with it to see what we could do better. So, then our last major change, we added trains from the Red Line going directly to the airport, so we made it eight trains per hour. This new iteration is, we're basically doing nine trains per hour so it's six on the Yellow and three on the Red. So, we're improving the airport service for sure.

SATHE: And then both Red and Yellow are direct to the airport. I actually myself have been at Millbrae and seen a bunch of very confused people from the airport getting off the train, very confused that it went the wrong direction first. Of course, it left them after they got off at Millbrae.

FITZGIBBON: And then they are going to wait for the next Red Line.

SATHE: Yeah, I think it's an interesting one where people arriving on BART at the airport are kind of the maybe the least knowledgeable about these quirks. So, I'd imagine it's a much better, nine trains per hour all of which are going direct to San Francisco and the East Bay is going to save a lot of headache for airport riders who are just trying to get home after a long flight or trying to get to their hotel.

FITZGIBBON: Right. It really does take away a lot of uncertainty when you're at the airport or if you're on the Red Line going to the airport. I've been on many of those trips through Millbrae on the way to the airport where people look around, I'm like, they're not sure what's happening. So, this will completely eliminate that to a really important customer base.

SATHE: And for riders from Millbrae, I don’t want to say it's bad news for them specifically, but having to go to the airport first, it's that turnaround. It's going to be a lot tighter than it is right now, right?

FITZGIBBON: Yeah, it basically adds about 6 minutes to their total journey. It's a four-minute ride, right from Millbrae to the airport and then there's a two-minute turn between the stop and the go out to Richmond. So, yeah, we've been doing that kind of turn for more than a year now and it works very effectively.

SATHE: SFO the way the station is it's more on the way than Millbrae was on the way to San Francisco. It takes 6 minutes to turn around, but it also took, what, four minutes to go from San Bruno to Millbrae, right? It's not even that big of an impact, which I think, combined with better airport service and a simpler service pattern helps a lot. I'm sure it also helps untangle some scheduling stuff down there with that track geometry.

FITZGIBBON: Yeah, it does. So, we're no longer needing to use the W Line, which is the line that connects Millbrae to San Bruno. So, all the trains are going to be going through the airport and out of the airport on what's called the Y line. So, it's going to simplify things. That's also where we're going to be doing some work for the future and so it gives that section of track maybe more opportunity for doing maintenance as we move forward.

SATHE: We sort of touched on it very briefly with a kind of simplifying service, but how is this going to improve reliability of BART?

FITZGIBBON: By spacing out the lines, so the Orange Line to 20 minutes Green Line 20 minutes, by spacing the lines, we actually get a little bit more time in between trains, which is a very valuable commodity for the control center if they have a little bit more time to deal with issues which happen all day long, it'll improve the overall solution. They're looking forward it they were one of the, the folks in the control center were one of the major reviewers of the schedule and the result was that this is going to be an improvement to give them more time to correct things when they get a little bit out of order.

SATHE: With what we were saying earlier about the transfers and things being easier, you've kind of managed the impossible in that there's more time between trains, but less time between useful trains because there's more useful trains. It’s a sort of hard thing to wrap your mind around.

FITZGIBBON: Yeah. It's pulsing the systems so that when they get to those main places where we do transfers, that the transfers are nice and clean. That would be MacArthur and 19th Street are major transfer places. But we also have other lines that are also meeting at those places, at MacArthur in particular, we have a six-minute transfer window for people going from Concord to Ashby or Berkeley in both directions, and we've never had that before. So, now there's ten-minute service in both directions between Concord, Walnut Creek, and anywhere from Richmond.

SATHE: Even if you’re making that sort of wrong way transfer.

FITZGIBBON: Right.

SATHE: That's a lot of trips that were just a huge pain on BART before the to stand there at MacArthur.

FITZGIBBON: Or you'd have to run and try to make the train, which is not always the best thing.

SATHE: Now there's plenty of time even if you need the elevator down and over and up. We just need to make sure that's possible for everybody. I've certainly made my fair share of running transfers, but you don’t want to schedule for necessarily.

FITZGIBBON: We look down on folks running on escalators. It's not safe.

SATHE: So that's great. I mean, it’s what? So, it's that transfer between the Yellow Line and the Red and Orange, the northern sections at MacArthur. And then the transfer, I think we'd call it a transfer opportunity down at Bay Fair has now tightened up even as well for people going Berryessa to Dublin. 

FITZGIBBON: Right. Yeah. The only place where we kind of lost an opportunity for a transfer that some folks are going to notice is starting in Dublin and going to Richmond. That transfer opportunity used to be a nice clean Blue to Orange Line anywhere between Bay Fair and Lake Merritt and that kind of went away when we had to move the Blue Line to better align with the Green Line and have a ten-minute service all the way into the City. So, it's now a 17-minute wait at Bay Fair if you want to make that transfer. But what I was able to do was adjust the Blue Line in the opposite direction. So, from Daly City to Dublin, I was able to slow it down a little bit so that anybody on the train can take a Red Line transfer at West Oakland, which is a new place that will appear on a Trip Planner.

SATHE: So, if you don't have to wait that 17 minutes right now, you can now make that change at West Oakland. You have to double back very slightly. 

FITZGIBBON: Yeah. If we go down and then up the escalator, which is unfortunate, but it gives you a 15-minute advantage of waiting for the other one, It actually adds 3 minutes to the total trip, which is, I think, a reasonable amount. As long as we're running in our on-time performance is running in the 80s to 90s, it should be pretty good.

SATHE: I'm familiar with that area around Bay Fair and obviously having the data shows that more people are riding Berryessa to Dublin, which is why that transfer is now prioritized over the Dublin to Oakland. It all comes back to the data at the end of the day.

FITZGIBBON: But I didn't want to I didn't want to forget about those folks that are going from Dublin to Richmond. It's still a really important origin destination for BART.

SATHE: A 17-minute wait would be kind of rough.

FITZGIBBON: That would be rough. And so, I looked into the schedule as deeply as I could and found that there was an opportunity with a very minor adjustment to connect that Blue Line to the Red Line.

SATHE: Is that the biggest, like little tiny, like tweak with the biggest impact, would you say? Or is there somewhere else that just like, a minute here or there saves people 20 minutes of waiting?

FITZGIBBON: No, that really was the kind of a last thing that I had to figure out a way to accommodate an important origin destination. So, everything else kind of fell together much more easily on the scale.

SATHE: That's like that's got to be pretty satisfying, right? I think we talked a lot last night about when all the puzzle pieces fit all together, it sounds like this time around they fell together just much more cleanly, too. You’ve got to be wanting to play, like, games where I have to schedule something. I doubt the software that you use has a license for it.

FITZGIBBON: Probably not. 

SATHE: Maybe someday if you're listening. People who develop this make a game version. So, what's next? I don't know if you can necessarily talk about that quite yet, but it sounds like we're pretty close to something really, really, really good.

FITZGIBBON: Well, what's next is if ridership recovers to the level that we need it to, adding an additional service on a ten-minute headway on the Red and the Green and the Blue and the Orange is a lot simpler. There's a way forward that I think we have without having to restart the entire process or go back to a 15-minute headway that we had pre-pandemic. I'm hopeful that as we move forward and ridership recovers to where we really need it to be, that we're able to use this new base and leverage what we have in order to improve, it.

SATHE: Because a future service we'll just basically drop right in on tens, and it'll still be very clean?

FITZGIBBON: Right.

SATHE: Was that intentional?

FITZGIBBON: It's not intentional, but mathematically it just works out. We're lucky that way.

SATHE: If I had done it, I'm sure I would have, if you doubled the service then all of a sudden, you've got four trains on top of each other trying to go through the Transbay Tube at once.

FITZGIBBON: Yeah, that doesn't work.

SATHE: No. I know we've talked about this a little bit, sort of off camera, but with future big capital projects coming to BART, the extension down to Santa Clara, CBTC (Communications Based Train Control) coming along. What are the impacts that those are going to have on scheduling sort of in the next, what do the next ten years of BART scheduling look like?

FITZGIBBON: It's going to be challenging. There's a lot going on, especially with this CBTC project, and it really does impact our ability to operate a schedule that we build. So, in some cases we actually have to build a schedule around the capital project itself. There's a chance that we're going to have to do some major schedule rebuilding on the Blue Line between Bay Fair and Dublin in one direction because that section of track at BART is the longest, straightest section that we have that we can use as an alternate test track for doing a lot of the tests that need to happen. We have an agreement with the vendor to do some of that work, but it does pretty seriously impact the ability to keep that line. The Blue Line is a clean and reliable and customer focused, which is a huge worry for me. We'll see what we can do.

SATHE: Even then, like once, once these projects are over, right? I know obviously it's going to be; we’ll cause job security for you have to plan around all these construction projects. But like, what's the world of scheduling going to be like once CBTC signaling is completely over?

FITZGIBBON: It really does change things up a lot and it simplifies. We don't have the constraints we had. We won't have many of the constraints that we currently have with the block1based train control system and so it gives more freedom to be able to put trains closer together in higher speeds in some cases. It really does simplify, takes away those constraints so I don't have to worry about that.

SATHE: Well, that takes some of the fun out of your job.

FITZGIBBON: No, it'll still be fun. 

We may get to a point in the future that if we go backwards, maybe ten years or so, the BART network did not change very much for very long periods of time, and the schedule itself didn't really change very much for long periods of time. So, there's a chance that as we go forward, once all these capital projects are finished, the BART schedule will become very static, which is a good thing for our customers. So, we'll see how it goes.

SATHE: All right, so I think that’s just about it. Thank you so much for another great discussion on schedules. I think hopefully we’ll do this again soon though if, as you were saying, things will hopefully not change so much now that it’s figured out for the current ridership. 

That was John FitzGibbon our Manager of Schedules and Planning here at BART and that was “Hidden Tracks: Stories from BART”.  If you’d like to listen to more you can download our podcasts on Sound Cloud, iTunes, Google Play, or on our website at BART.gov/podcasts.